Investment Transaction put in both investment account and checking account
I just did a download all accounts. This is the first time I have gotten any transactions from
my Fidelity accounts.
Well one of the transactions was an Div for interest on the cash balance in the Fidelity account.
That tranactions showed up in both the Fidelity account and my Checking account.
When I deleted the wrong transaction from my checking acount it also deleted the transaction from
the Fidelity account. When I did another download on the Fidelty account same thing happened again.
Finally the only way I could do this was delete from checking account. Accept all and clear new trans in
Fidelity account then enter that transaction manually in the Fideltuy account.
Larry
Comments are currently closed for this discussion. You can start a new one.
Keyboard shortcuts
Generic
| ? | Show this help |
|---|---|
| ESC | Blurs the current field |
Comment Form
| r | Focus the comment reply box |
|---|---|
| ^ + ↩ | Submit the comment |
You can use Command ⌘ instead of Control ^ on Mac
1 Posted by Angie Rauscher on 09 Sep, 2010 02:04 AM
Larry,
Could you please send a screenshot of the offending transaction in the each of the registers? This will assist make it much easier for us to diagnose the issue and find a resolution. Thank you for your assistance,
Angie Rauscher
Moneydance Support
2 Posted by Larry Wykel on 09 Sep, 2010 10:46 AM
Well Angie looks like at moment I can not reproduce problem.
That day I could reproduce the problem. Like I said in original statement
I ended up first getting out of MD without saving. I did a download of All accounts.
A Div Interest of .18 cents for Fidelity Cash appeared in both Fidelity and Huntington checking. Without confirming in Fidelity I went into the Checking account deleted
the wrong transaction this deleted the unconfirmed cooresponding trans in the Fidelity
Account. I then confirmed and cleared the remaining trans in the Fid accounts.
I then entered that trans back into the Fid account manually. I then did
another download of the Fidelity account and got zero new trans and the balanced matched my other program.Quicken on windows and Quicken Essentials on the Mac.
I just attempted to delete the transaction that I entered manually and did a download of the Fidelity account and got zero transactions.
At this point I am sending my entered trans only. I tried to enter it exactly as it appeared in the download. However I do not have the faulty trans from the Checking account. I will attempt some more times to reproduce the problem.
Again on that day I could reproduce it .
3 Posted by Larry Wykel on 09 Sep, 2010 10:57 AM
Forgot to mention that in the Checking account it showed up as Div interest earned
but I am sure it had the Name of the Fidelity Account. I have two accounts at Fidelity.
And it had the name of Fidelity account that also had the same trans showing up
there.
I did attempt both downloading all accounts and just the Fidelity account but again
no problems. At this point I think I will bring up MD delete all trans on that date.
and do a download of All accounts. If that don't reproduce the problem not sure what else to do. I had saved I would have a backup but I did not save until I had the balances correct.
Larry
4 Posted by -Kevin N. on 09 Sep, 2010 03:49 PM
Hi Larry,
I'll take a stab at this one...
It's possible that the $0.18 interest earned was somehow downloaded as a transfer (TRN) with your Checking account as the account that the funds were transferred to.
This would account for the txn appearing in both accounts and deleting one would delete the other.
The fact that the original txn. involved an interest payment (which has more of a correlation to a Banking account) may be what had triggered this odd behavior.
When the interest payment is made again, look to see if this anomaly recurs.
The fact that you've have now manually corrected the txn may have allowed Moneydance to 'Learn' the txn. so it doesn't happen again.
Keep your fingers crossed.
HTH -Kevin N.
5 Posted by Larry Wykel on 09 Sep, 2010 04:08 PM
Hi Kevin:
Well I think your right on this. My memory is a little hazy about all the details of the transacrtion in the Checking account
but it seems to me now you have brought this up is that I think I saw something in that transaction that it was indeed a transfer.
I Just got done attempting the following. I backed up my moneydance file I then went into the Fidelity brokerage account
and deleted all transactions that occurred on that day. Saved the file. I brought MD backup and did
a "Get All Accounts" download. I got zero new transactions.
So from this I gather that MD is not really using the MD file to keep track of which new trans to download
. My guess is its in the ~/.moneydance/fmdoules/updater.mxt file.
In any event this is an error for sure.
It will be a complete month or more before I would get another interest trans from Fidelity. I for sure
will be on the lookout.
In the mean time if there is a way that I could tell MD that It needs to download those trans again it would be great.
the update.mxt file in binary editor shows nothing sig to me.
Larry
6 Posted by -Kevin N. on 09 Sep, 2010 04:33 PM
Hi Larry,
I don't know if this will work or not but in 'Preferences...' on the 'Network tab' try upping the number in the drop down box at the bottom of the tab where it says 'Only match downloaded transactions when they are at most 'X' days apart. Mine is set at 21.
It's been my experience with Fidelity that once you've downloaded your data and then delete some of it, it will only re-download it again for few days afterwards.
I'm surprized that you can't download .ofx files from Fidelity either. Only .csv files.
I think it may be more of a Fidelity issue than a Moneydance one.
-Kevin N.
7 Posted by Larry Wykel on 09 Sep, 2010 05:20 PM
Well setting the "at most ...." stuff did not work. Strange though that I deleted about 10 to 15 trans on the 8/31 date
but when I set the at most to 21/30 I get only two of those trans back. ???? Anyway not sure
what you are infering about .ofx .csv files . All I know is the Quicken on Windows does not have these problems
so its not with Fidelity.
Again is there not something I can do in MD to make it download those transactions?.
Also I think the Transfer thing is the problem for sure.
I have another account at Fidelity its a rollover account is for sure not set up to do transfers to my checking
account like the Brokerage account is. So therefore when I did those downloads that day
and got the problem I had a interest trans in the rollover account as well but it did not show up in the ;checking account.
Also in doing this test I have found something else I think is wrong and strange and may be a root of problem.
I noticed in past months the same kind of interest payments being made they are marked as "Xfr" . I think that is wrong.
I have attached the snapshoot selection from register in Fidelity account.
I could not find a cooresponding entry like I experience the other day. It makes it hard because Huntington issues a
very similar transaction days later for their interest payments.
Larry
8 Posted by Larry Wykel on 09 Sep, 2010 05:38 PM
Forgot to mention in last email. I checked the same trans in Quicken on Windows.
Those interest transactions in Quicken are marked as "Deposit" and not "Xfr".
Something in MD is taking those trans and thinking of them as transfers. So in last
case it acutally like you said made coresponding entries into checking and Fidelity.
If Qucken can handle those transfers for sure MD can do as well.
Larry
9 Posted by -Kevin N. on 09 Sep, 2010 09:40 PM
Hi Larry,
The fact that the original interest payment txn was downloaded as an 'Xfr' is probably the root of the whole problem.
Like I said earlier, now that you've corrected it, Moneydance may 'Learn' that it's supposed to be a 'Dep' txn.
You may want to put a check mark next to 'Automatically Merge Downloaded Transactions' on the 'Preferences...' Network tab.
I'm going to have to acquiesce to the Moneydance Support Staff as far as resetting Moneydance to get it to re-download the earlier data.
You may just have to re-input it manually.
HTH -Kevin N.
10 Posted by Larry Wykel on 09 Sep, 2010 09:55 PM
No No you have lost what I was saying. There is simply no sense in me inserting manually etc ????
Reread my email so that you really understand what I did okay??
I saved my orig data file okay to experimment. The goal is to reproduce problem.
Larry
11 Posted by Ben Spencer on 11 Sep, 2010 03:39 PM
In Moneydance interest payments on investment accounts are of type Xfr. This is correct. They are a transfer from an interest income category to the investment account.
In the current version of Moneydance all transactions that are downloaded into investment accounts with the type Xfr have the transfer account automatically set to the first bank account. We recognize that this is not the correct thing to do in many cases and we will be providing an option in the future to allow the user to enter their choice of the default Xfr category/account in the investment account preferences.
In the mean time I am afraid you will have to manually change the transfer field on transactions you download that are of type Xfr.
Sincerely
Ben Spencer
12 Posted by Larry Wykel on 11 Sep, 2010 04:07 PM
How in hell did someone decide for themselves that an interest income regardless if its marked as xfr follow thru and decide
to "Acutally do a transfer" comeon now. This sounds like bullshit to me.
Besides looking back on previous transactions for example past two months june and july there were similar trans.
Again I sent you guys a snapshot of those trans. In those cases there was no actuall transfers made.
Ben sorry to say that this all sounds like pure bullshit to cover up a true problem.
You guys deciding to handle interest like this as xfr's is one thing. But to actually in fact
that transfer from one account to another trully quite stupid. No way do I believe this.
I think it is an error period.
At this point in time no way can I depend on MD to do all my banking etc. I got Quicken backup on Windows.
I am on Mac most of time and really want a good money managment package on the Mac.
Also when doing an online payment to have to wait 7 days for actuall payment to be made is ridiculous.
All of this I am sure is do to fact that Huntington at this does not officially support or appreve of MD
Larry
13 Posted by Ben Spencer on 11 Sep, 2010 07:49 PM
If you download a transaction into an investment register and it shows the action Xfr that is because that is the action that was assigned to the transaction by the financial institution. The OFX specification does not indicate where the funds for the Xfr come from and so Moneydance has to use something for the other side of the Xfr. By default it picks the first bank account as this seems like a reasonable first guess as to where the funds may have been transfered from. All transactions of type Xfr look essentually the same in the raw OFX data. While there may be something in the memo field that indicates it is interest there is no standard for what can be written in the memo field. As far as Moneydance is concerned this Xfr transaction might be a transfer you have made from your checking account. There is no way to reliably determine the difference.
The correct thing to do when you download a transaction of type Xfr is set the correct transfer account or category for that Xfr in the investment register.
Huntington does not need to approve of any of the programs that are connecting to their server. They are implementing an open standard protocol. Any software that supports that protocol can connect to their server.
I understand that you are no satisfied with Moneydance. I am sorry that this is the case. If you would like a refund let me know and I will authorize one asap.
Sincerely
Ben Spencer
Moneydance Support
14 Posted by Larry Wykel on 11 Sep, 2010 08:45 PM
Funny Quicken does have this nonsense issues. Again blaming Fidelity.
Let me tell you something. Fidelity has a hell of a lot more to do to make sure they do things right.
So get off the dam bullshit of blaming Fidellity and asking me to fix your god dam problems.
No way in helll is this a transfer so stop trying make it so. Quicken has the same transaction
as a depsosti.
Besides transfers means to another account you stupid people Not to another category
Larry
15 Posted by Larry Wykel on 11 Sep, 2010 09:10 PM
Again while you say technically regarding the OFX protocol then YOU GUYS need to determine a better to deal with
what you just stated to me. For example you state that the raw data does not provide data as to where the funds go.
(all this is assuming what you say is true about xfr. First I realy don't believe that Fideliy is doing that).
Anyway if even that is true then for sure you Know the xfr came from Fidelity because you certainly know
from WHAT account your downloading. So knowing that Fidelity marks these as xfr( don't believe it) then
you can properly deal with them. Again Quicken deals with it so you guys should ve able to .
Microsoft money dealt with it just fine. I been doing this for at least 15 yrs. So you guys come along
and saying sorry its all Fidelity fauit. Give me dam break. I am sick of this bullshit..
Another thing stupid you said. Well its standard protocal so it does not matter w eather Huntingtgon supports etc.A
Again you did not read or understand what I said. I know about protocols, servers etc.
Thats not what I meant. If I have a problem like with MD I may have to call Huntington to clear things up.
Which is exactly what I did early on in this mess. As a side not the support person said that they don't Officciall
support MD, Meaning he really did not have to spend time talking to me about MD problems. With Quicken
he would help troubleshoot isssues. Now do you understand ??
Also again several times I have said this. Past trans of these interests things were marked as xfr's but I had
no corresponding trans in checking account that I had to remove. DO you understand that??
It happened one time on one day. I could repeat the problem that day but once I fixed problems and accepted trans
I can not repeat the problem
Larry
16 Posted by Ben Spencer on 11 Sep, 2010 09:22 PM
Larry,
If you are interested in technical assistance then I am happy to continue this dialogue. If however you are interested in accusing me of lying and calling me stupid then I request that you refrain from posting further. If you refuse to engage in this forum with this minimal level of etiquette I will delete your forum account.
Moneydance is a double entry book keeping system. In such a system all transactions are a movement of value from one account to anther, aka a transfer. The word category refers to two special types of accounts, income and expense accounts. Spending money is a transfer to an expense account where as receiving income is a transfer from an income account. Interest income on an investment account is a transfer from an income account which is also known as an income category.
If you are interested in seeing the raw OFX data that comes from your financial instution select Help->Console Window before you start the download.
Sincerely
Ben Spencer
Moneydance Support
17 Posted by Larry Wykel on 11 Sep, 2010 09:56 PM
Well for sure your right on profanity etc. I am so dam frustrated with stuff its ridiculous.
What you guys are doing has already been done OKAY!!. It does not matter to me or users HOW you
do it but you must do it RIGHT.
So don't tell me all kinds of excuses etc about why this happened period. As a user
I simply did what the program says to do "Download All Transactions". Do you get that?????
In my Checking Account Register was a trans that was INCORRECT???? DO YOU GET THAT????
So don't give me all kinds of excuses about its right because it is not.
Now the other thing. Your right about stupid, profanity etc. I should not be doing that.
But by same token I am spending my time trying to help you guys debug this dam software okay.
I asked for you EXPERTS to tell me how I can get MD to redownload those transs on that day so that I can attempt to repeat
problem.
I worked in Java 10yrs ago, You keep pisssing off and I will find the dam problem myself.
I have found all your Java Jar files. I could make copies and attempt to find out what is happending on a download
So while your right on profanity etc. your fulll of it for all the rest.
Rather than telling all these reasons your right why don't someone really attempt to explain how this can happen
because in a solid program this should never happen period, It did not happed to me n 15 yrs with Money or Quicken
so it should not happed now
Larry
18 Posted by Ben Spencer on 12 Sep, 2010 12:43 PM
Larry
I understand that you feel frustrated and I am sorry that Moneydance is not what you are wanting it to be. We believe that we have enough information about the issue and that we understand why this is happening.
I am sorry that Moneydance does not currently meet your needs and I hope you find an alternative that is more satisfactory.
Sincerely
Ben Spencer
Moneydance Support
19 Posted by Larry Wykel on 12 Sep, 2010 02:37 PM
Well for sure I would most definitey find an alternative. But you know this as well as I THERE IS NO OTHER.
I Think Quicken Essentials for the Mac might be some where down the line but not sure.
You guys have an oppurtnity to provide that need.
I have asked many questions but your not attempting to answer them.
This is the first time you guys have admitted that it was an error. So thats a step in right direction.
Why in meantime with all the other stuff?.
Now again Its obvious that MD is using something else besides the MD file to determine which transactions to download.
I thought it might be in the .netbeans directory files. For sure I am sure there is a way to fake out MD
so it would attempt to download all those files on the day I had the problem but you guys won't tell me.
Notice I am willing to use my time to help repeat the event.
In the meantime probably at end of this month I will have a chance to repeat event. If so
I will take snapshots and send them to you
Larry
20 Posted by Larry Wykel on 12 Sep, 2010 02:49 PM
By the way I forgot to tell you. I have just checked and verified that previous trans in the Brokerage account
has the Memo field with text "Interest earned". Those transcations did not cause a problem in checking account
as far as I can determine. I wish I had the xfr trans now and could look at Memo field.
If it was like the previous then again per your own admission your software should be checking that field. If so
then do not put a trans in checking account.
Its funny though I thought I duplicated the trans when I did it manually but I have it marked as Div.
Larry
21 Posted by -Kevin N. on 12 Sep, 2010 06:09 PM
Hi Larry,
To re-download data, try accessing the Investment account then from the Menu bar, click on 'Online' then 'Set Up Online Banking' then click on the 'Reset Sync' buttion.
I'm not sure but it sounds like it may reset MD to re-download data.
Don't try this without a recent backup.
HTH -Kevin N.
22 Posted by Larry Wykel on 12 Sep, 2010 08:01 PM
Hooray Hooray !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Got it!!!!
I was able to repeat the problem. However I had to do a reset sync on both the Fidelity and Checking account.
I have attached the two snapshots.
Chkxfr.tiff shows wrong entry in the checking account (amnt is 18 cents)
brokxfr. shows the xfr entry in the Brokerage account (amnt 18 cents)
Larry
23 Posted by Larry Wykel on 12 Sep, 2010 08:08 PM
Hooray Hooray !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Got it!!!!
I was able to repeat the problem. However I had to do a reset sync on both the Fidelity and Checking account.
I have attached the two snapshots.
Chkxfr.tiff shows wrong entry in the checking account (amnt is 18 cents)
brokxfr. shows the xfr entry in the Brokerage account (amnt 18 cents)
LarryOn Sep 12, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Ben Spencer wrote:
24 Posted by -Kevin N. on 12 Sep, 2010 08:29 PM
Hi Larry,
OK, Now, in the Investment Account, change 'Huntington Checking' to 'Investment Income: Interest' from the 'Category' field drop down list. Then 'Accept' the txn.
Look under File > Preferences... Network tab to see if a check mark is next to Automatically Merge Downloaded Transactions. This will tell Moneydance to "Learn' the particulars of the txns so that this doesn't happen again next month.
HTH -Kevin N.
25 Posted by Larry Wykel on 12 Sep, 2010 09:35 PM
Reply okay will do I blew away that file because I did not want to confirm etc.
I purposely have the auto merge off because I did not want that. However, When next
month rolls around I will do it then. Now the previous xfr's of this interest type are indeed marked
as "Interest Income". What caused it to change for this month to a transfer to checking ???.
I don't think I changed any preferences etc.
Anyway just like the Categories stuff, the and the new payee stuff its not clear and really not obvious to the user.
Never in my wildest dreams would I think that text in the Categories field could actually change how a transaction
is handled. For what its worth I trully think that is a bad idea. Cateogire is just that a simple way of organizing keeping
track and to help make reports possible. But to have it affect a complete transaction hmmm not sure that.
Anyway good deal I will take it as your word that it will fix things up.
Larry
26 Posted by -Kevin N. on 12 Sep, 2010 10:00 PM
Hi Larry,
I'll keep my fingers crossed. ;]
-Kevin N.
27 Posted by Larry Wykel on 12 Sep, 2010 10:06 PM
Forgot something. Been thinking some more about this. And for sure this is not all thought
out for sure by me. But couple of items.
1. What happens if I do what your suggesting marking xfr's as interest income and then
sometime later I do an actual transfer which is what I do. I go on web into Fidelity and do the transfer.
2. No way should something in the Category field actually cause a entry into the Checking account register.
The ONLY things in the Checking account register should be data ACTUALLY downloaded from the Huntington
Checking account. Putting an entry in that register based upon text in category fiedl in a totally differenct account
is simply not correct.
3. So again while you have a feature of "learning" etc and options to merge etc its still
completrly wroing to put an option to even do it. If there is not a corresponding entry on
an actuall transfer then that is the responsible of the two companies and the OFX protocol.
Its not MD's responsiblity to put an entry into both accounts based an text some field in DIFF account
Larry
28 Posted by -Kevin N. on 12 Sep, 2010 10:47 PM
Hi Larry,
Categories and Accounts are treated similarly in Moneydance and the 'Category' field plays an important role in data entry.
The 'Category' field is where the txn is either assigned a category or in the case of a transfer the 'Category' field determines where the amount of the txn is to be transferred to.
Moneydance uses a double entry accounting system which dictates that if a transfer exists in your Fidelity account to Huntington Bank, the transaction MUST also appear in your Huntingtion Bank register.
I hope this clears things up a little.
HTH -Kevin N.
29 Posted by Larry Wykel on 12 Sep, 2010 11:14 PM
Yes thanks much Kevin reply. Yes I know from Spencer that you MD uses double entry etc and that Category field
plays important role "IN YOUR EYES". My guess is its part of OFX spec right?
Well all that is fine and dandy but Again NO WAY SHOULD DATA FROM FIDELITY SHOULD DETERMINE DATA
IN MY CHECKING ACCOUNT PERIOD. OFx protocoal, Double entery all that does not matter. If you really want
do that then its up to your software to verify that indeed an entry in Checking account exists or in recent data
and process accordingly . No way in H should you putting an entry in my checking account from data from Fidelity
Period end of story.
Now you may use that data to attempt to resovle etc or warn me but no way putting an actuall entry in register.
Forget it. Its quite simply not correct.
ITS NOT UP TO MD TO DO THIS. ITS UP TO FIDELITY AND HUNTINGTON AND OFX PROTOCOL TO MAKE SURE THAT IF AN ACTUAL TRANSFER IS MADE THAT TRANSCATIONS ARE DONE IN BOTH ACCOUNTS.
IN FACT I WILL LAY MONEY THAT WHEN I DO A TRANSFER WHILE IN MY ACCOUNT AT FIDELITY AND ACTUALLY
TRANSFER TO MY CHECKING ALL THAT PROCESSING BY FIDELITY SOFTWARE IS DONE ON A SOFTWARE TRANS BASIS. THAT IS A TRANSACTION IS STARTED AND IS ONLY COMPLETE IF BOTH THINGS ARE DONE WI THOUT ERROR.
IF AN ERROR OCCURS ON EITHER SIDE OF THE XFR THEN BOTH TRANS ARE BACKED OUT PERIOD.
SO ITS NOT MD TASK TO MaKE SURE THERE IS AN ENTRY INTO CHECKING ITS FIDELITY NOT MD.
So in the end all your doing is creating problems.
Larry
30 Posted by -Kevin N. on 12 Sep, 2010 11:56 PM
Larry,
I don''t know what else to tell you...
-Kevin N