Infinite Kind: Discussion

Loses data on Windows 8 (I want File, Save back!)

2012-11-17T01:35:55Z

Also, I'd suspect this bug may appear on all versions of Windows; it's quite likely it's not limited to Windows 8.

Loses data on Windows 8 (I want File, Save back!)

2012-11-17T02:00:53Z

Hello,

Can you please be more specific about the problem you are having? Is all of your data lost (as in, Moneydance can't seem to find your accounts at all) or is only some partial amount missing, such as the last few entries? Are you receiving any errors when using the program?

Ethan Tupelo
Moneydance Support

Loses data on Windows 8 (I want File, Save back!)

2012-11-17T02:03:32Z

I was specific in the first post. The only post showing up is the second. Did the support system lose the first post after I added the second one?

Loses data on Windows 8 (I want File, Save back!)

2012-11-17T02:29:04Z

I'm re-typing the post again; I'm afraid the support system lost it (very unpleasant).

I just noticed a few transactions were missing that I was sure I had entered in Moneydance 2012. I had been quite disappointed by some of the changes in 2012 (using a folder instead of a file; storing the folder outside a Windows library; the inability to choose the file location; the inability to tell Moneydance to Save). I investigated to see if I could reproduce the problem, and I can:

Open Moneydance 2012.
Add a transaction (and hit enter).
Save (oh wait, I can't anymore; I guess I just have to trust Moneydance to have saved already, except that it hasn't actually).
Go to the Start screen (Windows 8).
Forget I had been working on Moneydance. Decide to switch to a different user, so I Sign Out.
Later, Sign back in (problem repros even if I do right away)
Re-open Moneydance.
Notice that my transaction is gone!

The problem is that Moneydance no longer prompts to save. If I forgot to save in another application (like Moneydance 2011), I'd have a prompt to save first. (Other apps, like OneNote, probably just auto-save.) But Moneydance 2012 throws away my "unsaved" data when I sign out. That's very, very bad.

It's a good thing I noticed this problem sooner rather than later; I only happened to come across the fact that transactions I had previously entered were missing. In the past, I just trusted Moneydance to keep my data once I hit "save". With the new model, I thought I was supposed to trust Moneydance to keep my data once I enter it (since I can't save anymore), but unfortunately that's not always the case.

I really want some features of the old version back:
1. The ability to pick the location of my file (and I'd really prefer a file to a directory; I have no interest in embedded attachments, and even if I did, I'd be fine with a .zip-based format like MS Word/Excel/etc.) On Windows 8, the built-in backup system (File History) automatically saves my data, but only if it's included in a library. Not only does Moneydance 2012 not include my data in a library by default, it doesn't even give me an option to move my data into a library where it would be backed up. I store all my important data on an external drive that can be disconnected, and my financial data certainly qualifies as important.
2. The ability to File, Save explicitly. I really don't like the model where there is no explicit save for three reasons:
a. Sometimes downloading/importing history goes badly. Imagine a QIF import gone bad. I really want the ability to throw away a failed import and start over; I don't want to have to fix every badly-imported transaction manually.
b. I want to know my data has been persistent when I hit Save. At that point, I know it's there, even if I lose power or log off or Moneydance crashes or whatever.
c. Bugs like this one mean sometimes I could just plain lose data otherwise.

I used to trust Moneydance with my financial data. I've used it for years. But now I just can't trust it anymore. I've just switched back to the old version, and I'll stay there unless these problems are resolved. I they aren't, I expect to migrate to another program like Quicken or GnuCash. I don't want to go; I've been a happy Moneydance user for years. But I really, really don't like the new model, and when there are bugs like this one, it means I simply can't trust Moneydance with my financial data anymore.

Please, please:
1. Fix this bug,
2. Restore File, Save and,
3. Bring back the ability to store Moneydance data in a single file and location of my choosing.

Thanks,

David

Loses data on Windows 8 (I want File, Save back!)

2012-11-17T03:13:37Z

(Something else that was in my now-lost first post):

Apparently the only way to force Save now is to do File, Exit. That's not a sufficient alternative to File, Save.

Loses data on Windows 8 (I want File, Save back!)

2012-11-17T15:13:44Z

Hi David,
I can understand your concern about file saving. First, I want to let you know that we are beta testing a copy that lets you specify where your file is going to be located. Moneydance still keeps your data in a specific file but it is associated with a folder. You can specify where this folder will go. Over time, we are adding various features that will also reside in the folder and this is why we are using that format.
The auto-saving in Moneydance is intended to make it harder to loose data not easier but that did not work out in your case. There is certain behavior that you want the program to have if somehow you do something to the file that forces the program to crash, such that when you reopen the program the data you last entered will not be present (and cause it to crash again). In your case this feature is not working as intended. I'm going to speak with the developer about this and see how we can do it differently. to address the problem we were trying to address and the one that came up with you.
We are planning on adding a more interactive undo interface to enable you to 'restore' a file easily after any major accidental changes.
Sorry for the inconvenience and thanks for bringing up what happened with you, it is helpful information to have.
Sincerely,
Jon Hoover, Moneydance Support

Loses data on Windows 8 (I want File, Save back!)

2012-11-17T20:03:45Z

I created separate discussions for two of the related problems here:
http://help.infinitekind.com/discussions/problems/5965-default-save...
http://help.infinitekind.com/discussions/problems/5967-please-use-a...

Also, some general comments that probably are as good to put here as anywhere else: I think the product team could have handled the Moneydance 2012 release a bit better. Specifically:
1. They could have asked for customer input before making significant, customer-facing changes.
2. They could have waited to make significant, customer-facing changes until the feature was fully ready (achieves its objective without regressions).

Instead, the approach seems like it is more of:
1. We'll make significant changes without your input; you may be surprised when you upgrade.
2. We'll make the changes now but wait to deliver the value of these changes and fix regressed functionality later.

There are three places in Moneydance 2012 where things didn't go well on these points:
1. Changing to a folder rather than a file. As a customer, I get the drawbacks of extra complexity now without any benefit. I wasn't asked what I, as a customer want. All I have is the promise of attachments later (which I may not even be interested in). Getting something undesirable now for the promise of something better later isn't what I as a customer want.
2. Forcing a file/folder location. As a customer, I lose flexibility around organization, backup and synchronization. Instead, I get the promise that I'll get this ability back later (and it's been a while). Getting something undesirable now for the promise of something better later isn't what I as a customer want.
3. Losing explicit save. As a customer, I lose the ability to make mistakes without messing up my data. I also lose the ability to trust that my data is actually persisted (like in the case of this bug). I get the promise of undo later. Again, getting something undesirable now for the promise of something better later isn't what I as a customer want.

I've been a happy Moneydance customer for years, but I'm not pleased with these changes and how they were handled. I'm hoping things will be handled better in the future. Please communicate this feedback to the product team.

Thanks,

David

Loses data on Windows 8 (I want File, Save back!)

2012-11-17T20:19:10Z

Hi David,

You sound as disappointed, disgruntled and dismayed in MD 2012 as I was.
After two weeks of MD 2012, I chose to revert back to MD 2011.

If you would like to revert to MD 2011 also, here is a link to the instructions.
http://help.infinitekind.com/discussions/questions/5521-access-on-h...

HTH -Kevin N.

Loses data on Windows 8 (I want File, Save back!)

2012-11-17T20:47:14Z

Now regarding the File, Save matter, there are actually two parts to this problem:
1. Specific Implementation Bug: Moneydance 2012 fails to save (throws away) data when I Sign Out on Windows.
2. General Design Problem: Moneydance 2012 takes away explicit control of saving data.

It sounds like someone's going to look into part 1, which is great.

For part 2, the answer I keep hearing is that undo will solve this problem in the future. In this respect, please see the feedback I gave above about losing functionality now without user input in exchange for the promise of a fix later. Beyond that, the problem is that undo doesn't actually solve the problem. There are two things File, Save provided:
a. The ability to make save not happen (the ability to make changes and then throw them away)
b. The ability to make save happen (the ability to make sure changes have been persisted).

Undo only helps with a, not with b. Currently, the only way to do b is File, Exit, and that's not a sufficient alternative to File, Save.

This bug is actually a result of a problem with b; and Undo wouldn't help at all. There are a number of problems with saying Undo is the new File, Save:
1. It doesn't work now. It's simply not available today. As a result, I've had to downgrade to Moneydance 2011. (You really don't want your users downgrading. That makes them start thinking of your product in a negative light. When was the last time you had to downgrade a product, and what was that like for you? How did it impact your trust of the company/product?)
2. It doesn't handle everything. What happens when I wanted to save, but couldn't., and then did something unrelated that causes Moneydance to crash. I've just lost my data because I lost the ability to force a save (part b above).
3. Undo would have to cover everything (100% of all actions I might do that change the file). Also, Undo would need to exactly restore the file to the original condition (100% of the way it was before). Consider:
a. Downloading transactions
b. Importing a QIF
c. Adding, renaming, deleting an account
d. Deleting a ton of transactions (How much memory will use for the undo buffer?)
e. Archiving years worth of transactions
Any of these actions could go wrong. Will all of them be Undo-able? Will Undo itself be completely bug-free? Before, I didn't have to trust both auto-save and Undo, I just had to trust that File, Save actually saved (and didn't unless I told it to). Now, I have to trust more things to be bug free.
4. Accidental exit after making changes. Related to this bug, suppose I make some changes to Moneydance that I'm not sure if I want to save. Then I go back to the Start screen in Windows 8 and forget I was in Moneydance (I can't even see it anymore). You fix this bug, and so now if I log off, you save. But I didn't want you to save; and now I've lost my undo buffer. Are you going to save the Undo buffer along with the file to address this scenario?! With Moneydance 2011, it just worked.
5. In general, you've replaced a simple mechanism with a more complex one. More complexity generally means more bugs. (As a professional software developer myself, I'm a strong believer in simplicity.)

Let's look at the simplicity of auto-save vs. explicit save. Consider a parallel: automatic lights. Which is more simple, automatic lights with a motion sensor/timer? Or a light switch?

A light switch is far simpler. Sure, you have to hit the switch. But that's the only complexity. With that "automatic" switch, here's the extra complexity:
1. You have to have a way to sense when the lights should turn on. Probably a timer and/or a motion sensor. Complexity.
2. You have to have a way to sense when the lights should turn off. Same complexity.
3. Sometimes things go wrong. What if the timer is wrong (people working after hours). To people have to wave their arms to keep the lights on to trigger the motion sensor? The report is Bill Gates once had to sleep with a pillow over his head because the "smart" lights in his "smart" house had bugs and wouldn't turn off. It's just plain more complicated to replace a switch/button with an automatic mechanism and always get it right.

The only place I've seen automatic lights work is where there's an explicit override: you use a switch to force the lights on or off. That's essential to making the mechanism usable; the auto-mechanism isn't always right, and it needs an override.

The same thing goes for File, Save. The only product I know that does auto-save (OneNote) has always done it, and I don't think they have as many cross-platform complexities (and probably more staff). And they built in this mechanism from the start. I'm not aware of a product successfully retro-fitting in this complexity. I can imagine things like this bug where previous hidden assumptions just cause things to break down in unexpected ways.

Please, please at least give me the option of disabling auto-save. (I want the light switch override for when things go wrong.) Saving my financial data is important. I want it to be simple and reliable, not complex and buggy.

It probably goes without saying, but it's really a big deal to have Moneydance permanently lose my financial data like with this bug. I used to trust my important data was there when I hit save. To discover some unknown number of transactions are missing is very bad. I don't even know what I've lost. I'll just have to wait for my statements to come in and trust that any unrecognized charges are things Moneydance lost. That's bad. Very bad. As a customer, I go from the mode, "I really like and trust this product" to "I can't even trust it to save the data I've entered. I either have to convince them to fix it or find a new product."

The auto-save idea is cool and all, but I really think it's just too complicated to get it 100% right, and the data is to important for me to take this risk since we now know there are already bugs in this are. At the root, I don't think the fault lies with this particular implementation bug, I think it lies with the overly-complex design that's trying to do "magic" to avoid me having to hit a button. But it's my financial data. I want the button so, as a user and customer, I'm always in control of my own data. I just don't think I can trust a financial program if it won't give me that control, especially if I've already seen bugs in this area.

For all these reasons, I really, really want File, Save back. Without it, I don't think I'll be able to trust Moneydance to hold my financial data, and I'll have to go elsewhere.

Thanks,

David